INC.: That's probably one area in which large companies differ dramatically from small companies -- getting people to focus on the small details.
CARLZON: I don't know. If you have five employees, you see them every day, and you can communicate with them directly. If you have 34,000 employees, you have a tremendous resource and a fantastic challenge. You have to give very clear objectives in a large organization. But the basic management approach is the same. In both cases, you still need to show people respect and faith.
INC.: But doesn't a company get to a size at which it becomes unwieldy -- when you just can't get your message out to everybody anymore?
CARLZON: I don't think so. If you have a good message, you can get an entire nation to hear it. I doubt there are many Soviet people who don't know Gorbachev wants to change the climate in the Soviet Union. Good messages will be spread.
INC.: How do you spread them?
CARLZON: Show biz. It's all show biz.
INC.: What do you mean?
CARLZON: I produce the show. I think I am a strategic person. But how do I get people to grab the strategy, to get it under their skin, to get a feel for it, to get it? I can't write it in a manual. I must make a show of it. I motivate people through the show. Right? Communication. And it is not manipulating -- it is a way of getting the message across.
INC.: Give us an example.
CARLZON: To some extent, I've used the media to get my message across to people. I know that, if I send out an internal memo, 10% of our people will read it, and 2% will remember it. But if there's an article about SAS in the newspaper, they will all read it, because they are interested in their company. I even published a book to get across the message -- Moments of Truth. My main mission there was to reach people inside the company, because I knew they were going to read it.
INC.: Is that how you see your job, as the communicator of the strategy?
CARLZON: Yes, I suppose so. My job is not to make business; my job is to ensure that other people can make business.
INC.: OK, but you must have to keep your message fairly simple if you want to get it across on that scale.
CARLZON: Oh, definitely. I want to keep it simple. I say, "We want to be the preferred airline for the frequent business traveler." It can't be misunderstood. If you start to give goals that can be misunderstood, you have to begin again.
INC.: Don't you worry that such a goal leaves too much room for interpretation?
CARLZON: Well, you must provide a framework in which people can act. For example, we have said that our first priority is safety, second is punctuality, and third is other services. So, if you risk flight safety by leaving on time, you have acted outside the framework of your authority. The same is true if you don't leave on time because you are missing two catering boxes of meat. That's what I mean by a framework. You give people a framework, and within the framework you let people act.
INC.: You're talking about communicating strategy, but you also had to communicate a different way of running a business when you came to SAS, didn't you? How did you convince managers, for example, to adopt your style of management?
CARLZON: I'm not sure I have convinced so many people. If they think I'm acting in a specific way, well, you know and I know that every manager wants to copy the chief executive -- especially if the company is successful. If I wear a jacket and trousers, managers will do so. If I play golf, more people will play golf. And so forth. It is natural for people to copy me if my way is successful. If it is bad, I think they will find other ways.
INC.: What about employees? After all, you were coming into a company in which people felt mistakes could cost them their jobs. Now, you tell them that they shouldn't worry about mistakes -- they should take responsibility and make decisions. How do you get them to feel secure enough to do that?
CARLZON: There are no simple tricks. Just live up to it. And listen. Sooner or later, you'll hear about someone who made a decision that you think was very good in terms of the company's strategy. When you do, make sure that you give the person many strokes, and do it as officially as possible, so other people will learn from it. A positive example is the best way to create the right atmosphere. Of course, if you think someone made a wrong decision, let him know it, but tell him when you are alone -- and don't let him view it as a punishment. Really, there are so many things you can do to give people the security to take responsibility. Over time, you do it by measuring and rewarding performance.
INC.: Not by show biz?
CARLZON: For a year or two, you can motivate people through emotion and show biz. They are hyped up for a while. But, for the long run, people must know they will be measured in an accurate way in relation to the responsibility they have been given. That's a good way of spreading security among people, and it's one area I didn't always understand as well as I do today.
INC.: Well, that raises another question -- namely, how do you learn about this stuff, anyway? Did you always have this approach to management?
