CARLZON: No, not at all. In fact, I started out just the opposite. I'd been appointed president of a company where I'd worked for six years with a team of managers about my age, which was 32 at the time. Although I would have been very disappointed if I hadn't been made president, I still got nervous about the attitude of the other managers. How would they look at me now? I felt that I had to show them I was the right man for the job. The company was in a bad situation, with big losses. I thought, "Now, I have to be the boss." I thought I had to prove I knew everything better than the others did -- that I was quicker in analyzing things and making decisions and everything. So I started developing my ego, saying "I want this" and "I decide that.'
INC.: What made you change?
CARLZON: I was lucky to have good friends around me. One of those good friends saw what was happening and came into my office. He said, "What the hell are you doing? Do you think we chose you to be our boss because we wanted you to be somebody different from who you were? If you don't get back to being yourself, you will be a failure." This was a very good lesson to me. You see, I was insecure. He gave me one type of security by saying, "For heaven's sake, we respect you as you are, and we accept you as a boss because of who you are." The next thing, of course, was that we succeeded. I saw I could do things that people expected me to do, and that were good for the company. People liked me as boss. That gave me security and confidence.
INC.: In a sense, you're talking about mental health, aren't you? You're talking about how you feel about yourself. What your friend did was give you permission to be yourself, and that's a big part of leadership.
CARLZON: I can tell you, there are days when I feel very bad and I shouldn't leave my office. I should just stay at my desk. But when I feel fine, strong, I shouldn't stay a minute in my office. I should walk around and see my people, because just to walk around and dare to be strong, dare to give, is much more valuable than any decision I could make or any report I could read. What I give away then is mental health to the organization. You see what I mean? Isn't it right? It is right!
INC.: Do you actually put aside the reports and call it a day?
CARLZON: Sure. The most unproductive time we have is when we sit at our desks. Because the only thing we do is read history: what has already happened, what we cannot do anything about. Statistics, memorandums, reports, minutes of meetings. Then we have eight telephone calls to make, of which two are worthwhile. But when we leave our offices and start to walk around and talk to people, that's when we make things happen. You give your thoughts; you get thoughts back; you draw conclusions; perhaps you even make decisions.
INC.: What could make a day so bad you'd want to stay in your office?
CARLZON: Oh, various things. Ironically, some of our biggest problems have come from having too much success too fast.
INC.: What do you mean?
CARLZON: I mean that, after just two years, we were more profitable than we had ever been in history, and ev-eryone was rating us the preferred airline for the business traveler. So we were there. As Arne Naess said when he climbed Mt. Everest, "I had a dream. I reached it. I lost the dream, and I miss it." It was the same for our whole organization. We had a dream, and we reached it, and we reached it very quickly.
INC.: What was so bad about that?
CARLZON: We didn't have another long-term objective. So people started to produce their own new objectives -- not a common objective, but different objectives depending on where they were in the organization. You see, it had all been a little too easy. And we created frustration, because this is a psychological game. Do you know the song Peggy Lee sings, "Is That All There Is?'
INC.: Did you have that feeling?
CARLZON: Yes.
INC.: What did you do?
CARLZON: One thing I did was talk to Ingmar Bergman.
INC.: The director Ingmar Bergman?
CARLZON: Yes. Let me tell you a story about Bergman. I invited him to dinner one week before the premier of "Hamlet" in Stockholm. He said, "You are crazy. It would be an insult to all your other guests. It would be like inviting me to dinner one week before my divorce. Do you know why? Because I start to build this play eight or nine months ago. First, I write the synopsis; then I select the artists. I involve them in my play, tell them what I expect from them, help them get the idea. We all work for the same objective: to make this play a fantastic play. But it is my play, my works, my scenery, my thoughts, my everything. So they rehearse, and I help them. I form them. And now -- one week before the premier -- do you know what is happening? They've taken it over. They don't need me any more. I'm a spillover. Can you understand that? So don't invite me for dinner." OK, well, the same thing goes for the president of a company.
INC.: What did you learn from that?
CARLZON: I learned that, before you reach an objective, you must be ready with a new one, and you must start to communicate it to the organization. But it is not the goal itself that is important.
INC.: What is important?
CARLZON: The fight to get there.
